and you have this divide between -- i think a strong ideological position on the republican side, not rates, and somewhat ideological, somewhat practical position on the obama side saying we can't get to $1.6 trillion without doing rates. now, we're not going to get to $1.6 trillion, so it becomes academic. >> can we get to $1.2 trillion where i think and others think we're going to end up without raising the rates? >> you can do it mathematically. it works. you can write laws that do it. the question you have to say to yourself, do you want to start eliminating charitable deductions for state and local taxes, for charitable, for health care, even, for retirement funds? in other words, do you really want to turn people's behavior kind of inside-out almost overnight by changing the way taxes work so quickly? >> mark, you're as plugged in as anybody in washington right now. are these guys talking to each other in a real, meaningful way? i know they put out the information that the president talked to john boehner yet, but are there real behind-the-scenes intense negotiations as we're no